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LDoc



Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People have mentioned problems with league and our dwindling numbers; I'd be interested in seeing actual statistics with that. Does anyone have the actual numbers of players signed up for FDA SL and WL over the last several years?

Is there a clear trend of decline? Up and down? This year a particularly bad year?

I know we've had a lot of older, established players move away over the last 2-3 years, but I'd be interested in seeing the overall figures.

p.s. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciate both the ideas for improvement and the hard work from those who are in charge.
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BOOBY SAUCE



Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
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PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey april, got your tough love right here girl. next time i'll try to lose my job, worry about my house and family and plan on going back to school in a nonleague signup month.

ah Jody, you are so predictable. i knew you would break it down.

i rambled and made some sarcastic comments but my point is the same. More rules and regulations suck moose dong. numbers seem to have dwindled or at least stagnated. signup rules won't help and you'll be back to 4-6 team leagues. Fayetteville has its own unique scene thats done well for a fairly long time. Why fuck w/ it? So the EC has an easier job? So b-jax is happy? Like you said Jody, you can't make everybody happy, but you can do what makes the most people happy.

Amy and i forgot to sign up this year because life got in the way. first time ever. Now we can't play?

lame
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 1085
Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Champagne wrote:
What about out of towners, people passing through, that arent new players but who also didn't have the foresight to sign up for another towns league? Like Jake Swift who is planning on spending time in Fayetteville this summer but might not have nailed the specifics until midway through league.

Personally, I'm with king kharl on this one. i like the ability for traveling players to experience our scene.

Champagne wrote:

It doesnt matter if new players still get to play if we have teams of 3 and 6 showing up on Sunday... the FDA needs players and recruits, period.

Agreed.

Champagne wrote:

We are getting smaller and smaller by excluding people who may want to play but who may not want to invest as much time/ thought/ energy as we do.

Another statement made as if it's a fact, but not at all substantiated. Are we getting smaller and smaller? This winter league seems pretty large to me? If we are getting smaller now, it can't possibly be because of rules we're discussing that we haven't implemented yet.

Champagne wrote:

We shouldn't forget about people on the fringes who may be thinking, "Oh yeah, I kind of had fun at league last year. I want to do that again... Oh wait! I can't because I forgot to sign up two weeks ago..."

Hidden in this statement is what I think is one of our underlying problems - our leagues are not really good at building a cohesive community. If we were better at building community, these fringe players wouldn't only think about us on the rare occasion, or we could forget about them because our non-fringe base would be larger and more committed.
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LDoc wrote:
People have mentioned problems with league and our dwindling numbers; I'd be interested in seeing actual statistics with that. Does anyone have the actual numbers of players signed up for FDA SL and WL over the last several years?

Is there a clear trend of decline? Up and down? This year a particularly bad year?

I know we've had a lot of older, established players move away over the last 2-3 years, but I'd be interested in seeing the overall figures.

p.s. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciate both the ideas for improvement and the hard work from those who are in charge.


I would also like to see the numbers. My gut tells me that we're not really experience a decline in total numbers, but there are definitely some underlying opportunities.

1) Older, established players have declined. Numbers for ADA have been down several years in a row.
2) College participation. It seems a little better this winter league. I understand that there are 10 women on SOCO who aren't in WL. There are reportedly 28 regular LS players, but my rough count (hard to be accurate when you don't know them all) is that only about half are playing WL. The half that are generally = local Fayetteville people + Jon Mills + Chuck.
3) Female players. A lot of this could get double counted from #1. For ADA last year, i counted something like 19 women who had played ADA in 2010, but not 2011. Of those, something like 11-13 had moved away or stopped playing completely. However, we've really struggled to replace these players with new women.

I don't think there's much we can do about #1 and our efforts should be focused on #2 and #3. I believe very simply that we need better outreach to the college teams (coaches, mentors, just show an interest in them) to help connect their players to our community. We need to really come together with a host of ideas and efforts to fix #3.
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supafunky wrote:
LDoc wrote:
People have mentioned problems with league and our dwindling numbers; I'd be interested in seeing actual statistics with that. Does anyone have the actual numbers of players signed up for FDA SL and WL over the last several years?

Is there a clear trend of decline? Up and down? This year a particularly bad year?

I know we've had a lot of older, established players move away over the last 2-3 years, but I'd be interested in seeing the overall figures.

p.s. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and appreciate both the ideas for improvement and the hard work from those who are in charge.


I would also like to see the numbers. My gut tells me that we're not really experience a decline in total numbers, but there are definitely some underlying opportunities.

1) Older, established players have declined. Numbers for ADA have been down several years in a row.
2) College participation. It seems a little better this winter league. I understand that there are 10 women on SOCO who aren't in WL. There are reportedly 28 regular LS players, but my rough count (hard to be accurate when you don't know them all) is that only about half are playing WL. The half that are generally = local Fayetteville people + Jon Mills + Chuck.
3) Female players. A lot of this could get double counted from #1. For ADA last year, i counted something like 19 women who had played ADA in 2010, but not 2011. Of those, something like 11-13 had moved away or stopped playing completely. However, we've really struggled to replace these players with new women.

I don't think there's much we can do about #1 and our efforts should be focused on #2 and #3. I believe very simply that we need better outreach to the college teams (coaches, mentors, just show an interest in them) to help connect their players to our community. We need to really come together with a host of ideas and efforts to fix #3.


Also, Northwest Arkansas is growing a lot, but we are still very Fayetteville-centric. I'd guess that we could probably drive some growth with a regional strategy and outreach.
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matchew



Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supafunky wrote:


2) College participation. It seems a little better this winter league. I understand that there are 10 women on SOCO who aren't in WL. There are reportedly 28 regular LS players, but my rough count (hard to be accurate when you don't know them all) is that only about half are playing WL. The half that are generally = local Fayetteville people + Jon Mills + Chuck.



Untrue. There are at least 23 LS players signed up for WL. Including 16 of them that had never played in an FDA sponsored league until coming to college. College numbers are growing, the majority of these players are underclassmen.
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 1085
Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BOOBY SAUCE wrote:
Like you said Jody, you can't make everybody happy, but you can do what makes the most people happy.


Most players in our league were in the original draft. Most of them probably don't have a strong opinion about the supplemental draft one way or the other. However, I think most people have an understanding of what is fair and at least a vague sense that the supplemental draft may not be fair.

BOOBY SAUCE wrote:

Amy and i forgot to sign up this year because life got in the way. first time ever. Now we can't play?
lame


Agree. Not everyone here is advocating for the removal of the supplemental. My number one request is transparency in how it's done. Here's what I would propose in total:

1) new players can join the league at any point in time. They can pick the team they want to play on or will be assigned to a team (i prefer randomly, but could concede to helping a team with confirmed attendance problems).
2) Following the regular draft, all teams will be ranked/scored and this will determine their pick order for the supplemental draft.
3) A supplemental draft for experienced players will be held only once on the first day of league. This gives players two deadlines and then puts on the "tough love".
4) Experienced players traveling through town who want to play can play for any team having less than 7 players that day. If all teams have at least 7 players, they should be placed on the team with the worst win/loss record.
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Champagne



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 1104
Location: Fayetteville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I base my argument about numbers on the fact that I remember some years ago (3, 4?) we were considering going to 12 teams per league because we had enough players to do that happily. Our problems were people not getting enough playing time because the teams were so large. This year, we had a pool of women so small that 10 teams could only draft, at most, 3 per team, and some could only draft 2... Really, based on those numbers, we should have only had 8 teams this winter.

Will forcing people to meet a strict deadline increase the number of people that sign up for the draft, alleviating some of these issues? Obviously. Will it also, discourage people from showing up, literally not allow them to, alienate them from the FDA, and have an impact on future numbers? I think that's just as obvious.

So, in essence, do we actually on paper have dwindling numbers? I don't know. I think so. I may be wrong. But the fact remains that we have about 100 -150 MAX people showing up any one weekend. I'm not sure how many Chicago players there are, but I bet its a safe bet that its in the hundreds bordering on four figures.

Four figures=luxury to discriminate.
Barely two figures=get more people to come play ultimate!!!

Sooo.....
What is in the best interests of the FDA: Enforcing people to sign up on time/punishing those who don't by not allowing them to play at all, or getting more people to play, even if it means more work on our part, to ensure the future of ultimate in Fayetteville? I think the latter.

And Apes, I do get your point. The supplemental sucks, I hate it too. It means more work on the part of the EC (specifically the part of the league coordinator, which sucks for you to have to mess with...) and throws a wrench in the whole mix when it comes to talent spread. It's messy and should be reduced as much as possible.

I just think that hard and fast restrictions like not being able to play are rather drastic. They also usually don't go over well with people that just want to show up every once in a while and toss plastic on Sundays; or those who ultimate just isn't the first thing they wake up thinking about; or those who aren't social media fiends like the rest of us, much less check their email, much less are engaged enough in this forum to even know its an issue for us.

I think there is probably a middle ground, one that includes incentives for signing up on time (cheaper fees or something), punishment for those who don't (charge an extra $20 or so per player that doesn't sign up on time), and actually having the physical mailers and communication about signing up. The FDA has been lacking that last one recently (which, flattery aside, is one reason I'm so happy your in charge of it now, because you are on the ball with that stuff more than most) and I think simply having it vs. not will drastically increase numbers for the draft. I think these are good steps towards reducing what is obviously a pretty shitty problem, vs. just eliminating the problem entirely and causing some pretty unwanted consequences.[/i]
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Champagne



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 1104
Location: Fayetteville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought about this too when writing that thing...

On a similar note and kind of related to the numbers thing, I just wanted to say I am EXTREMELY impressed at the amount of high schoolers that have turned out in the last few years. Since I've started playing there has been a huge boom in the high school numbers and talent, and I'm LOVING it!! Keep doing whatever your doing and the FDA will help in any way possible.
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-Faded, oh so faded. Like a memory gone, there's no recollection. - Ben Harper
-Friendship is like pissing your pants. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth.
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Champagne



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 1104
Location: Fayetteville

PostPosted: Thu, 02.09.12 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hidden in this statement is what I think is one of our underlying problems - our leagues are not really good at building a cohesive community. If we were better at building community, these fringe players wouldn't only think about us on the rare occasion, or we could forget about them because our non-fringe base would be larger and more committed.


Oh, and drastically agree.
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Jon Champagne (Lil' Bubbles)
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 2079
Location: your mom's house

PostPosted: Fri, 02.10.12 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BOOBY SAUCE wrote:
hey april, got your tough love right here girl.


i wasn't directing my comments at you...you actually told me that you tried to sign up and had computer issues, which proves despite how busy you were, you found 2 minutes in the 2 months of open sign up to fill out a form. no one will convince me that they are ever too busy to sign up for a league. if you check an email and can read these boards, you can click on a link to sign up and fill it out. i highly doubt you or amy would have been homeless, jobless, school less, etc, had you signed up. and thank you for introducing "moose dong" into my vernacular.

and it's not lame. people shouldn't forget when it's blasted in their face, and if we start a precedence of making it a requirement, they won't. we aren't asking you to go line the fields for league. or spin the cotton to make the fabric for the t-shirts we're asking you to type letters into a form that is about 4 questions long. and especially veteran players who have played leagues for years, know they are happening and can respect the league enough to sign up in advance. fda isn't alienating players by not allowing supplemental, they are alienating themselves by not signing up. if someone came to me and was 100% honest that they received no information on signing up, i'd still let them in. i completely understand people have lives outside league (right now, i wish i did!), but signing up isn't a burden.

i do like jody's idea of the first day only supplemental though. if you want to play league, you'll be there.
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Last edited by ROCOBaller on Fri, 02.10.12 9:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri, 02.10.12 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also, we do have actual numbers somewhere, but here's the past couple years:

2010 - WL 162; SL 175
2011 - WL 186; SL 134
2012 - WL 152 (with a handful of those not showing up)

king kharl would probably be able to post 2009 and earlier info
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Fri, 02.10.12 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've also been pro out of towners playing, and would break the rule this year (if it is one) if someone came through. unless it was king kharl. Smile
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri, 02.10.12 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matchew wrote:
Supafunky wrote:


2) College participation. It seems a little better this winter league. I understand that there are 10 women on SOCO who aren't in WL. There are reportedly 28 regular LS players, but my rough count (hard to be accurate when you don't know them all) is that only about half are playing WL. The half that are generally = local Fayetteville people + Jon Mills + Chuck.



Untrue. There are at least 23 LS players signed up for WL. Including 16 of them that had never played in an FDA sponsored league until coming to college. College numbers are growing, the majority of these players are underclassmen.


signed up, but are they showing up? i don't know the answer, but have just heard they aren't.
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 519
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PostPosted: Fri, 02.10.12 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: college players
On the (Slacke)Red team...
Wes and I are there.
Sebastien has been once or twice.
Alex T. has been there 3 times.
Walker and Nathan have been once.
So 6 LS guys on red.

From the draft... the LS players I recognize
Austin Culp on purple (not playing LS this semester)
Abe, Eric, Stu, Will, Julian on Pink
Jon, Dylan, Brian, Alex on Yellow (Dylan isn't playing LS this semester)
Todd on lime
Matt on white
Gentry on blue
Joe, Travis (?) and Austin on black
Cam and Cox on orange.

24 (or 22) LS guys in the draft. I haven't heard of any major absences from other teams... even Kearney is showing up!

btw, love or hate the supplemental, I'd be interested in seeing a current team list.

LS has a tournament both this weekend (Big D...) and next (Mardi Gras), so that could shake things up a bit.
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