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turk



Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 300

PostPosted: Tue, 03.17.09 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHess wrote:
turk wrote:
For you to say that their actions are unethical would be you "forcing your views on them" right?
JHess wrote:
we can designate ethics if we like. the problem arises when one group of people want to make something unethical for another group without abiding by the same standard. hence, your desire to make porn unethical is hypocritical because you wear make-up (which many people in the East see as pornographic).
Me forcing this particular set of views is just since I'm willing to abide by them myself. However you are still unjust cause of the make-up thing.

So if forcing your views is just if you abide by them, then you'e saying I can call anything unethical if I don't do it? So I can say drinking or smoking is unethical because I don't do it?

turk wrote:
So we can agree that there are ethical standards. Once again, different societies, cultures, countries, and upbringings affect people all over the world, so what makes them have similar ethical standards?
JHess wrote:
however we both, and everyone else in the world, agree that murder, rape, theft, are unethical. these are acts that one person forces on another against his/her will
Universal ethical standards are a sign of the time and a reflection of a social contract. That means, in order to promote cooperation we all agree to a couple of things. Porn does not hurt cooperation and is not an ethical issue.
How can you argue that there are universal ethical standards when you argue for relativism at the same time? Obviously there are differences of opinion as to what is ethical and what those "universal ethical standards" are (even in extreme cases like murder and theft), so if we can't agree on that social contract across cultures/ societies/ etc. then how do we determine what is right and wrong?
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evan mcb



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 1951

PostPosted: Tue, 03.17.09 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



It's not unethical if God does it.
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JHess



Joined: 02 Oct 2003
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Location: Fort Collins, CO

PostPosted: Wed, 03.18.09 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turk wrote:
So if forcing your views is just if you abide by them, then you'e saying I can call anything unethical if I don't do it? So I can say drinking or smoking is unethical because I don't do it?
You already do this and I'm telling you it's crap.
turk wrote:
How can you argue that there are universal ethical standards when you argue for relativism at the same time?
I'm not arguing that there are universal ethical standards. Are you reading my posts before you disagree with them?
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed, 03.18.09 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LB wrote:
Ryan, I'd like to agree with you on some of those points. Porn is definitely better than gang violence, and someday I hope to be a cougar and pick up young boys myself. (I don't know what they'll call you on the other hand.) However, most pornos don't teach men how to be good lovers--they only teach women how to fake a good orgasm.


i've been trying coin them "bobcats"
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Panamaniac



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed, 03.18.09 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turk wrote:
I can call anything unethical if I don't do it? So I can say drinking or smoking is unethical because I don't do it?


so would dating Il Duce be considered unethical because I don't do it?
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trisarahtops



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 827
Location: in my island

PostPosted: Thu, 03.19.09 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/view/

"American Porn," Frontline documentary on our fav topic.
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Katherine



Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Fri, 03.20.09 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't watched the link yet, Sarah. It was interesting just to see what was on The Cambria List, a list of guidelines created by the porn defense attorney, Paul Cambria.


The Cambria List


I can see the need to not depict pain and unhappiness, but I'm very surprised that he would feel the need to include "no black men-white women themes". It's almost like he threw that in to show how arbitrary and unjust limiting porn content can be.

And Ajax, your avatar is right out.
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Champagne



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 1104
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PostPosted: Fri, 03.20.09 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I haven't read the last 11 pages, sounds like a lot of banter to me... But...
I like porn!!
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Goji Berries



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 53
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PostPosted: Fri, 03.20.09 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

humans are disgusting dirty, base animals. and porn shows it all.

and i love it!!
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turk



Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 300

PostPosted: Mon, 03.23.09 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHess wrote:
we can designate ethics if we like. the problem arises when one group of people want to make something unethical for another group without abiding by the same standard.


Back to my original point...That is not the problem because if it was then I could say anything was unethical if I didn't do it.

JHess wrote:
however we both, and everyone else in the world, agree that murder, rape, theft, are unethical. these are acts that one person forces on another against his/her will. that these are unethical is a consequence that no one wants these things to happen to them. this is not the case with porn. porn is something you do to yourself.

JHess wrote:
I'm not arguing that there are universal ethical standards.


You saying "we both and everyone else in the world" believe something is claiming universal truth. If EVERYONE can agree that murder, rape, and theft are unethical then that is a universal truth. And if you believe in relativism then you shouldn't be telling me porn is not unethical.
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JHess



Joined: 02 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon, 03.23.09 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For something to be Universal it has to be constant everywhere you look at any time you look.
Even if we were to agree that some truths are universal enough there are always exceptions to a rule. There's a time and a place for murder, theft, and rape; respectively war, poverty, and prison.
Ethics are held by groups during periods. Some ethics are become laws. Some laws are unjust:
MLK Jr. wrote:
An unjust code is a code that a numerical or power majority gorup compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself.

Porn is not unethical. Since porn is art you calling it unethicsal is numeric majority compeling a minority not to make art whereas they will bask in their own art. Porn is as ethical as Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ.
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kernal



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue, 03.24.09 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHess wrote:
Even if we were to agree that some truths are universal enough there are always exceptions to a rule. There's a time and a place for murder, theft, and rape; respectively war, poverty, and prison.


I hate to agree with Turk, I really do, but aren't war and poverty considered unethical actions on a grand scale? I figure that's why we have all these organizations against them. I don't think anyone involved enjoys war and poverty, at least not for any sustainable duration. I think everyone agrees that war and poverty are unjust, and i suppose immoral (though here you guys are making it a little hazy), and just like murder and theft, just because sometimes you're forced by your circumstances to do something, it doesn't make it ethical. There's a Hess quote a few banters back that I'm too lazy to find that demonstrates that point.

And also, I'm surprised that you tried to validate rape with prison rape. I believe if you went to prison, you'd think a little differently. Either that, or you'd be the most popular boy in school.
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evan mcb



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Tue, 03.24.09 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kernal wrote:
aren't war and poverty considered unethical actions on a grand scale?



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JHess



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PostPosted: Tue, 03.24.09 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elvin
i'm not saying that these things are ethical i'm saying they're not universally unethical. of course they are unpleasant, but if someone is trying to kill you then it's somewhat acceptable to a lot of people to kill them. if someone is starving to death, a lot of people would say it's not completely unethical to steal. furthermore, i doubt you could get EVERYONE to agree that prison rape is unethical. its what people call a counter-point.
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the BEEJ



Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 213
Location: candyland

PostPosted: Tue, 03.24.09 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="evan mcb"]
kernal wrote:
aren't war and poverty considered unethical actions on a grand scale?


What about Rambo?

and fyi evan, when you play bible mad-libs you get smited. trust me.
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