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Freya



Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 314

PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what she said!
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DrDoug



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 Reasons why women might wear make up and tight jeans other than to sexually stimulate Josh Hess.

1. Because it's the current fashion to do so.
2. Because they have high self-esteem and know they can work that look.
3. Because they have low self-esteem and are trying to compensate by looking good on the outside.
4. Because that's what their friends are wearing/doing.
5. Because they have gained weight and those jeans aren't as loose as they used to be.
6. Because playing "dress-up" is damn fun.
7. Because they want to.
8. As a form of personal self-expression
9. Because their parents never let them wear make-up when they were in high school and they are now exacting revenge
10. Because they think they look better when they do.
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evan mcb



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrDoug (has yellow fever too!) wrote:
9. Because their parents never let them wear make-up when they were in high school and they are now exacting revenge


And for that matter, some girls have sex for that reason, NOT TO BE SEXUALLY STIMULATING ha.
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Jatt Mackson



Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd hate to be a woman

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/trouble-brewing-p1.php
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trisarahtops



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 827
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're determined to see it this way, any reason one comes up with for women tarting themselves up can be turned around to a hetero-normative, androcentric, misogynistic claim which itself can reduced to the claim that women exist for men's pleasure. This is Evan's favorite game, and this concept is, incidentally, the issue some people have with pornography--that it presents a fantasy of male domination over (a) female subject(s) whose role is to provide one of three holes whose "sole purposes" are male sexual stimulation.

I actually hold that this critique is a fair assessment of some pornography. However, I don't know how menacing this fantasy actually is, or how direct the effect of watching pornography and conceptualizing a real world in which all women are seminal trash cans may be. I do imagine that some men find pornography very empowering and wish to emulate its power dynamic in their relationships.

That said, there's plenty of different kinds of porn around, including porn that depicts men getting their ass whipped and women kissing other women because they're actual lesbians, and I would be remiss to demonize all forms of visual sexual simulation particularly if I find some of those forms sexually stimulating.

If you still want someone to satisfyingly answer why women wear tight clothes and make-up, though, and no one seems to be able to do it without resorting to a statement that can be interpreted as a sexually stimulating act, perhaps the real question is why you are so insistent upon forcing women to "admit" this reality. Do you think women need a reminder that their sole purpose of existence is to deliver male pleasure?

Perhaps your defense of pornography could maneuver around this troubling stance. Perhaps you could talk about pornography with a critic, such as Turk or myself, and not resort to the same sexist logic that some might find mirrored in pornography itself. Or maybe you should let someone else do the defending for you.
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RBill



Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 1572
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jatt Mackson wrote:
i'd hate to be a woman

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/trouble-brewing-p1.php


Laughing haha, oh women.
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RBill



Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trisarahtops wrote:
If you're determined to see it this way, any reason one comes up with for women tarting themselves up can be turned around to a hetero-normative, androcentric, misogynistic claim which itself can reduced to the claim that women exist for men's pleasure. This is Evan's favorite game, and this concept is, incidentally, the issue some people have with pornography--that it presents a fantasy of male domination over (a) female subject(s) whose role is to provide one of three holes whose "sole purposes" are male sexual stimulation.

I actually hold that this critique is a fair assessment of some pornography. However, I don't know how menacing this fantasy actually is, or how direct the effect of watching pornography and conceptualizing a real world in which all women are seminal trash cans may be. I do imagine that some men find pornography very empowering and wish to emulate its power dynamic in their relationships.

That said, there's plenty of different kinds of porn around, including porn that depicts men getting their ass whipped and women kissing other women because they're actual lesbians, and I would be remiss to demonize all forms of visual sexual simulation particularly if I find some of those forms sexually stimulating.

If you still want someone to satisfyingly answer why women wear tight clothes and make-up, though, and no one seems to be able to do it without resorting to a statement that can be interpreted as a sexually stimulating act, perhaps the real question is why you are so insistent upon forcing women to "admit" this reality. Do you think women need a reminder that their sole purpose of existence is to deliver male pleasure?

Perhaps your defense of pornography could maneuver around this troubling stance. Perhaps you could talk about pornography with a critic, such as Turk or myself, and not resort to the same sexist logic that some might find mirrored in pornography itself. Or maybe you should let someone else do the defending for you.


you naysayers don't scare me! you 2 may stop trying to stimulate me with tight jeans and push up bras, but you'll never convince the others, never! mwa ha ha
plus, i'm pretty sure girl on girl is the only porn there is, and i'm sticking to it. I'm on a no wiener diet -- in more ways than one! bada bing! so at least I and the naysayers are on the same porn boat. awww, the porn boat, what a beautiful imaginary vessel.
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JHess



Joined: 02 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trisarahtops wrote:

If you still want someone to satisfyingly answer why women wear tight clothes and make-up, though, and no one seems to be able to do it without resorting to a statement that can be interpreted as a sexually stimulating act, perhaps the real question is why you are so insistent upon forcing women to "admit" this reality.
I don't want women in general to admit this. I want Turk to admit that under the current definition of porn, wearing make-up is pornographic, which is pretty ridiculous. Hence, that definition of porn is ridiculous
trisarahtops wrote:
Do you think women need a reminder that their sole purpose of existence is to deliver male pleasure?
If I believed in a God I would say the answer must be yes or God wouldn't have made Evan. As it stands now, I think women have a multitude of other purposes which at the present includes presenting invalid ad hominen attacks.
trisarahtops wrote:

Perhaps your defense of pornography could maneuver around this troubling stance. Perhaps you could talk about pornography with a critic, such as Turk or myself, and not resort to the same sexist logic that some might find mirrored in pornography itself. Or maybe you should let someone else do the defending for you.
If you had been paying attention, you'd realize that I'm not defending pornography. I'm saying that there is no way to separate pornography from art. Pornography is art. It's not as easy to appreciate as "The Scream" or "Starry Night" but it's equally as valid as a form of human expression. I think there is some porn out there that is unhealthy and degrading to women and to men, but there are some pictures hanging in museums, and works of fiction in hotel drawers, that I feel the same way about.


As to why women wear make-up, let me change the wording of my theory and take those awful men out of it.
Theory: people wear certain items for the purpose of being attractive to other people.

Do you disagree with this?



Doug,
I appreciate the top ten list. I saw 2 things that don't ultimately break down to wanting to look good.
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RandomHero



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1479

PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrDoug (has yellow fever too!) wrote:

3. Because they have low self-esteem and are trying to compensate by looking good on the outside.


these are my favorite
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RBill



Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHess wrote:


Theory: people wear certain items for the purpose of being attractive to other people.

Do you disagree with this?


i don't really doll myself up too much. if i didn't wear t shirts and sweatpants everywhere, would I be more attractive to girls? Or does the fact that I display an I don't care attitude make me more attractive to girls. Maybe they want to fix me. Discuss.
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Jacob



Joined: 13 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryno Saurus wrote:
JHess wrote:


Theory: people wear certain items for the purpose of being attractive to other people.

Do you disagree with this?


i don't really doll myself up too much. if i didn't wear t shirts and sweatpants everywhere, would I be more attractive to girls? Or does the fact that I display an I don't care attitude make me more attractive to girls. Maybe they want to fix me. Discuss.

You're blowing it.
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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Location: your mom's house

PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josh, i agree that women dress the way they do and wear make up to make themselves look better, but i would say most times it isn't with the thought "i'm going to dress this way to make guys get hard" (though it sometimes is). we just want to look better for ourselves. being sexually stimulating with our asses in tight jeans and having painted lips is just something that also happens. here is a better dialogue:

Boy: you are dressing like that to sexually stimulate me
Girl: no i'm not
Boy: then why are you wearing that low cut shirt
Girl: b/c it makes my boobs look good. i like looking good.
Boy: well that sexually stimulates me
Girl: well that is not my problem, but probably an added bonus if i decided i'd like to watch porn with you at some point

also, i'm still waiting for my porn party
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Joel
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 845
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trisarahtops wrote:
tarting themselves up can be turned around to a hetero-normative, androcentric, misogynistic claim
I guess you are using the term tart as a joke, which would be funny (or at least the attempt at humor would makes sense) if you didn't seem to be taking yourself so very very seriously. As it is it just seems like a bad double standard...

trisarahtops wrote:
which itself can reduced to the claim that women exist for men's pleasure.
so wait, you are saying:
1) josh is making an unjustified, overly simplistic mischaracterization of women's reasons for dressing in ways that tend to be sexually stimulating.
2) and that's bad because you feel justified in making your own overly simplistic mischaracterization of his belief.

I think you've got some good points in there after this, but when you start out with such obvious double standards it's hard not to be suspicious about the rest.
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fluffy



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 1051

PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the record, not that I've read all, or most, of these long assed posts, (please note the inherent genius in http://www.ls-ultimate.com/viewtopic.php?t=7051)
I READ Playboy, and sometimes look at the pictures.

BTW, who wants back issues of Playboy?
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RBill



Joined: 22 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu, 03.05.09 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROCOBaller wrote:
josh, i agree that women dress the way they do and wear make up to make themselves look better, but i would say most times it isn't with the thought "i'm going to dress this way to make guys get hard" (though it sometimes is). we just want to look better for ourselves. being sexually stimulating with our asses in tight jeans and having painted lips is just something that also happens. here is a better dialogue:

Boy: you are dressing like that to sexually stimulate me
Girl: no i'm not
Boy: then why are you wearing that low cut shirt
Girl: b/c it makes my boobs look good. i like looking good.
Boy: well that sexually stimulates me
Girl: well that is not my problem, but probably an added bonus if i decided i'd like to watch porn with you at some point

also, i'm still waiting for my porn party


that's silly. I stand by the over-simplistic response that it makes girls feel good because they are in fact turning guys on, or catching their attention or whatever you want to say. You get dressed up to feel good about yourself, but if you got all dressed up to go out on the town with the ladies and no boys noticed you or hit on you or looked at you creepily (even if it is a total creeper you'd never sleep with) or whatever you'd not feel good about yourself. Thus turning on boys is the mission. Perhaps you may say, uh uh I'd totally feel good even without boys cuz girl power yay! but you'd be lying to yourself and sinking into depression.

This statement by no means endorses rape.
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