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kdoe



Joined: 06 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.20.12 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overtime has nothing to do with Caps. The rule books says nothing about losing timeouts in a Cap(soft or hard), although TD's normally will restrict them as games are usually capped b/c of time and therefore having timeouts doesn't help with getting the game over, necessarily.
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Conner22



Joined: 27 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mills wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Many people believe "overtime" to instead mean "in hard cap", but the language of the rest of V.C doesn't support this. In any case, being in "overtime" guarantees one time out per team, regardless of how many TO's remain from regulation. (VI.B.1)


Chuck makes a good point. I am definitely one of the players who treats a hard cap as synonymous with overtime; and yet overtime clearly requires a tied score. Now I'm confused: what is the ruling for a time out called during a non-tied hard cap?


For the league, it's treated synonymous with overtime giving each team 1 TO.

Any other time if you call TO in hard cap it's a turnover unless explicitly stated otherwise.
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Chuck



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conner22 wrote:

For the league, it's treated synonymous with overtime giving each team 1 TO.

That may be. I haven't seen the 2012 summer league captain's packet.
Quote:

Any other time if you call TO in hard cap it's a turnover unless explicitly stated otherwise.

O Rly? This is neither expressed nor implied in the 11th edition, wherein both "overtime" and "hard cap" are defined (and defined to be different things).

A quick search on RSD revealed this discussion. Your opinion seems to be represented there, but the consensus is that
1. No times outs in cap is a tournament-specific rule, and
2. Many tournaments explicitly include this in their ad hoc amendments to the 11th Ed.

(edit: better RSD discussion... but still boring I guess)
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Last edited by Chuck on Thu, 06.21.12 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Elvin



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
Conner22 wrote:

For the league, it's treated synonymous with overtime giving each team 1 TO.

That may be. I haven't seen the 2012 summer league captain's packet.
Quote:

Any other time if you call TO in hard cap it's a turnover unless explicitly stated otherwise.

O Rly? This is neither expressed nor implied in the 11th edition, wherein both "overtime" and "hard cap" are defined (and defined to be different things).

A quick search on RSD revealed this discussion. Your opinion seems to be represented there, but the consensus is that
1. No times outs in cap is a tournament-specific rule, and
2. Many tournaments explicitly include this in their ad hoc amendments to the 11th Ed.


maybe the all-time most boring post ever on the boards.
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Jacob



Joined: 13 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conner22 wrote:
Any other time if you call TO in hard cap it's a turnover unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Please don't espouse rules nonsense without research. You're not seasoned enough to make up rules and tell someone it was a learning experience. The learning experience is that veteran players make up rules to take advantage of newer players. New players are encouraged to read and be skeptical of vets.
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Champagne



Joined: 05 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, having not seen the Captain's Packet, what is the rule for OUR league this summer?
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for summer league: each team has 1 timeout in the cap regardless of how many they've used prior (so for our purposes, cap is considered overtime)

there is no captain's packet...i'm green (or maybe lazy)

in conclusion, there is no rule in 11th edition to say you can't call timeout in a cap, but a lot of tournaments add it which has made people think that it is a rule. overtime only occurs when a game is tied at one point away from winning and then each team has 1 timeout regardless of prior timeout usage. if a cap is on, and the game becomes a game to 12 when it would have been to 15, 11-11 does not become the new overtime score, that would still be 14-14 and teams should have their timeouts still (unless the tournament rules added a no timeout policy). and most ultimate players don't know the rules but like to spout them out anyway -- my conclusion is likely incorrect somewhere.

for summer league, when the horn goes off, finish the point and if it's not tied, game is over. remember, the next point begins as soon as the prior one finishes. so if you're standing on or walking to the line when it goes off, you can still play that point. however, i've encouraged captains to only continue playing in those circumstances if it is tied or there is a chance to tie b/c of time constraints. and yes, it doesn't make sense that timeouts can be called b/c of my time constraint logic, but it's a learning league and situations might arise to teach some end zone plays in these situations.

also, i think the captains are doing great!

and finally, for evan, league ends in a pool party which should prove much more exciting than this time out conversation.
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Chuck



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, is each team allotted exactly one time out after hard cap is signaled, regardless of how many remained from regulation?
(Sorry to be nitpicky; trying to leave no room for ambiguity)

I'm no Paul Baker, but I do try to stay knowledgable of the rules.

When WillDoc (IIRC) called a timeout in ADA, public opinion (that he had not, indeed, called a timeout) prevailed over the rules (VI.B.4), which basically say
"... MUST form a T..., and SHOULD say 'timeout' " (emphasis mine). At the risk of boring Evan further, I'll reiterate two other lesser-known rules whose application would have changed ADA, if only slightly:

II.J. Line, which basically says that inbounds/out of bounds is NOT determined by which cones the offense is attacking. Key phrase - "not extrapolated"

XVI.H Fouls: "It is the responsibility of all players to avoid contact in every way possible"

/rant
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
Just to clarify, is each team allotted exactly one time out after hard cap is signaled, regardless of how many remained from regulation?
(Sorry to be nitpicky; trying to leave no room for ambiguity)


yep
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Champagne



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for summer league: each team has 1 timeout in the cap regardless of how many they've used prior (so for our purposes, cap is considered overtime)



So, the way it is stated right now, if I've used ALL of my timeouts during the game, and have none left, then I get one more, additional, timeout in the cap. That is wrong... We had this problem last year as well, people trying to drain all their timeouts because they thought they had a freebie timeout in the cap.

I think what you mean to say is that IF YOUR TEAM HAS TIMEOUTS LEFT, then you can ONLY use one of your REMAINING timeouts in the cap, correct?

If so, for the future it should read:

For summer league: Each team will only be allowed to use 1 of any remaining timeouts in overtime play.
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Champagne wrote:
Quote:
for summer league: each team has 1 timeout in the cap regardless of how many they've used prior (so for our purposes, cap is considered overtime)



So, the way it is stated right now, if I've used ALL of my timeouts during the game, and have none left, then I get one more, additional, timeout in the cap.


this is correct and intentional. for league, cap is like overtime which isn't the same as the 11th edition rules.

i'm also expecting teams to only call time outs in the cap in a tied situation where it can make a difference in the outcome of the game. i probably shouldn't bank on that, but if the horn goes off and you're down by more than 1, you really shouldn't be calling timeouts at that point. it's a risk i'm willing to take though.
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kdoe



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my only other question to this, to bother april even more....is...

Do you go down to 1 timeout when the horn is sounded or when the point is over that the horn sounded during?
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Champagne



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we get two per half and a possible fifth in the cap??
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-Friendship is like pissing your pants. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth.


Last edited by Champagne on Thu, 06.21.12 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you get a time out when you move back here from denver, where you currently live that is not in fayetteville where you don't play in our league Laughing

but now, since you asked and i'm sure chuck wants to know, once the horn sounds cap/overtime starts and the timeouts reset

the end.

anymore questions will result in summer league imploding with brown being crowned the winner!!!
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kdoe



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PostPosted: Thu, 06.21.12 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Champagne wrote:
So we get two per half and a possible fifth in the cap?? To make games shorter???


I think April is trusting captains to use the timeouts if they are needed for teaching purposes and not for time wasting. So therefore having more ability to call timeouts is important for the league as a non-competitive outlet for ultimate.
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