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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 2079
Location: your mom's house

PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 7:13 am    Post subject: bringing back up the supplemental Reply with quote

i want some opinions on the supplemental. at this point in summer league, we could have had 10 teams (might have had to go 6:1, but still 10 teams). we're getting 4-5 new people coming out each night, which is good b/c our goal is growth. however, my question is are we losing value for our core membership by adding a ton of players after the fact? for you experienced players, do you care that you've paid to play in a league where you play possibly 4-5 points/game? where do we draw the line between growing and still providing a good league for our current members? i'm mostly talking to the guys here b/c the women still get plenty of playing time still.

in hindsight, i would have considered adjusting our supplemental policy for this league to only adding players in the first 3 weeks. that gives everyone plenty of time to get people out. and the supplemental is a pain in the ass as far as shirt ordering is concerned.

maybe i'm way off though and everyone is fine as is. or perhaps there is a better way to get these people to sign up in advance? my goal here is to get a constructive conversation going - not an argument.
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cmohr



Joined: 29 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally, i like that i have 10 subs to choose from. league is about learning and teaching, not about how competitive we can be. yes, i would have rather had 10 teams with 12 people on each instead of 8 teams with 18 people on each, but it hasn really affected the outcomes.

i didnt realize we were still getting suplementals still. i thought there were just a lot the first 2 weeks and then it died.

playing only 4-5 points per game doesnt bother me that bad, especially because i know the tournament will be a lot different than league. with that said, this is one of my favorite leagues ive ever played. props to andrea and whoever helped her with the woman's developmental league this spring. i have between 5-7 women come out every week!! (or april's mad recuiting skillz)
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xaja



Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mathematically, 10-25% growth is the optimal sustainable scrumtralescent spot that you should shoot for to maximize your goals.
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auxarc



Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what is interesting about this league from past ones is new players are bringing out even newer players after a week or two. At some point there is a point of diminishing returns where there are too many players per team to have time to teach/playing time, but I don't think we are there yet.

I am hopeful next year there will be enough for 10 teams of 14+.
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts:

1) Maybe it's just my team, but we had 6 ladies last night. They're not getting enough playing time and have been running sprints after the games to make up for this.

2) Too many subs (of any gender) are detrimental to learning, teaching, and retention. Striking the right balance of playing time is critical to these objectives. Jade has too many players.

3) I assume that the supplemental rules are being followed and that these 4-5 players per week are new. If so, then I have no problem with the supplemental. Adding new players should be done whenever they show up.

4) We should avoid a perspective that there's a dichotomy and we're either competitive or not. This league has different goals than ADA, but it's still a competition where people keep score, tally win-loss records, play a tournament, and crown a champion. Acknowledging this and working WITH it is much more productive than pretending it's not true or chastising people who pay a bit more attention to the competitive aspects.
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my line of thought here is not on the win/loss aspect, but mostly playing time. it's been stated we can't teach/learn with too many people, and my fear is we also can't retain both experienced and new players if they are paying for a league that they don't get much out of. which is what i'm asking now - are you getting what you want? if not, is it enough to make you not sign up in the future? or are you okay with taking the back seat to the new players on the field b/c that is what has become expected of the more experienced players in league? if everyone is happy, then good. but maybe there needs to be some revisions to the supplemental.


next year, i might just roll the dice and go to 10 teams with the assumption each team will gain subs in the supplemental if we're close to 10 already. and then it wouldn't be an issue.

for jade's issue, i did notice that jade has a lot of players, but that a few of the guys play a lot more points than the rest of the team, so maybe you can get better rotation to solve that problem (i'm not talking about jody or mills here) and possibly throw some 4-3 points in there?
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supafunky wrote:
My thoughts:

1) Maybe it's just my team, but we had 6 ladies last night....

2) Too many subs (of any gender) are detrimental to learning, teaching, and retention. Striking the right balance of playing time is critical to these objectives. Jade has too many players.

3) I assume that the supplemental rules are being followed and that these 4-5 players per week are new. If so, then I have no problem with the supplemental. Adding new players should be done whenever they show up.

4) We should avoid a perspective that there's a dichotomy and we're either competitive or not. This league has different goals than ADA, but it's still a competition where people keep score, tally win-loss records, play a tournament, and crown a champion. Acknowledging this and working WITH it is much more productive than pretending it's not true or chastising people who pay a bit more attention to the competitive aspects.

1) We too had 5 or 6 ladies last night, and ended up playing 4-3 against gravel (who had 4 or 5?).
2) Agreed. White had 19 in attendance last night, with Joe Garrett, Brett, and Nick2 among the absent.
3) We got 3 supplementals last night: Megan (?) and Matt are new players; Carey (sp) played for Jacks On Jill.
4) +1, applaud, yay, or whatever.
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carey was signed up and drafted on your team but was out of town until now but i don't know where megan came from, she never checked in with me
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROCOBaller wrote:
carey was signed up and drafted on your team...

Duly noted.

Megan came with her friend Maggie (?), so it seemed like once of those "dance wit who brung ya" things.
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SharpWill28



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine the expansion to ten teams is unavoidable, but I just feel like the level of play will drop, and it isn't exactly been very high this summer as it is, IMO. We currently have a league that isn't enticing enough to get our best players out. There are others who almost didn't play for the same reason. I would just fear an even further drop off in the level of play.

But again, I really do understand that it's a numbers thing and so the expansion to 10 teams is probably unavoidable.
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cmohr



Joined: 29 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpWill28 wrote:
I imagine the expansion to ten teams is unavoidable, but I just feel like the level of play will drop, and it isn't exactly been very high this summer as it is, IMO. We currently have a league that isn't enticing enough to get our best players out. There are others who almost didn't play for the same reason. I would just fear an even further drop off in the level of play.

But again, I really do understand that it's a numbers thing and so the expansion to 10 teams is probably unavoidable.


While I agree that the level of play will drop due to experience players being dispersed further apart, that shouldn't be the reason for FDA not expanding. Just think if all those new people kept showing up for 6 more leagues (3 years), how much more competitive and experienced they will be.

April has been harping about how theres never enough girls that come out, and now that we finally do, people are weary about expansion?
Can't have one without the other.
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could also argue that level of play would improve with more teams with fewer subs b/c the experienced players would be on the field more often...
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SharpWill28



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say weary, obviously expansion is awesome, I'm just saying I still think it would have it's drawbacks. Sure, if the same people come out for six leagues, FDA would be much better for it.

I wouldn't argue you that. Even with more opportunities for the experienced to play more, the overall lack of experienced players would still make a high dependency on the newer players, which is a good thing, but I think it brings down the level of play.


So there is no confusion: I support the growth of FDA Very Happy
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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so does that mean you support the same supplemental policy we've used for new players that we've been using or propose something new? or just move to 10 teams if it looks viable when the time comes?
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SharpWill28



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PostPosted: Wed, 06.27.12 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I would change about the supplemental is that no player who has played before can join after draft. Only new players. And yes I realize I got Sean Wylie this way, doesn't change my opinion.
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