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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 519
Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 10:13 am    Post subject: Timeouts after/during cap Reply with quote

11th edition, section VI.B wrote:
Team Time-out: Each team has two team time-outs per half in a standard game.

1. Each team has exactly one team time-out in overtime, regardless of whether any time-outs remain from regulation.


V.C wrote:
Overtime begins when the score is tied at one goal less than the game total (e.g., in a game with a game total of 15 goals, overtime begins when the score reaches 14-14).


Cap is not mentioned (and the WL rules don't specifically address timeouts in cap). When the horn blows, no team gains or loses any timeouts. The number of timeouts that a team has remaining at any given moment depends on:
1. How many you started the half with. WL rules say 1 per half and a floater, right?
2. How many you used this half.
3. What the score is, but ONLY if the game is in overtime.

The only tricky area is in the definition/interpretation of "game total". From the examples in the rules, "game total" seems to be the number that the game is "to" (e.g "game to 13"). A team must be winning by at least two points when the game total is reached to be declared the winner.

My personal interpretation is that the "game total" changes to (current, tied score, + 1) when hard cap goes off. This effectively makes it overtime = "ultimate point". Under this interpretation, if cap goes off when it's 4-3 and the trailing team ties it up (4-4), the game enters overtime and each team has exactly one timeout.

A more conservative interpretation would say that overtime ONLY starts when the game goes into (ultimate's version of) deuce. For WL, that would be when the game is tied at 12's.
----------------
Under either interpretation, once black tied the game 12-12 against us yesterday, overtime began. Black had used all of their timeouts in regulation, so they effectively "gained" a timeout. Not that they used it. Almost everyone on the sidelines espoused the misconception that "cap" and "timeout" are ever discussed together in the USAU 11th edition (on in the 2-line WL rules). So we had a chat, whence this TL;DR

So.... Should we expect an amendment to the WL rules to match the misconception, or should we play by the 11th ed.?
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cmohr



Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 96
Location: Fayetteville

PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid points, but i it seems as though we are on time constraints and thats why the current timeout rules are what they are, regardless of the "correct" way.

its a lot easier and time effecient to keep it how it has been. 1 time out per half, plus a floater. Use them wisely.
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SharpWill28



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our league setting, there isn't a need for a team to ever have a chance to call 5 time outs (two per half; one in OT), so that was part of the reason I made it one and one and a floater. I imagine most teams aren't even using three, but I could definitely be wrong. I won't be changing the rules. And cmon Charles, be fair, my WL rules were DEFINITELY three lines.
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Elvin



Joined: 17 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Timeouts after/during cap Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
11th edition, section VI.B wrote:
Team Time-out: Each team has two team time-outs per half in a standard game.

1. Each team has exactly one team time-out in overtime, regardless of whether any time-outs remain from regulation.


V.C wrote:
Overtime begins when the score is tied at one goal less than the game total (e.g., in a game with a game total of 15 goals, overtime begins when the score reaches 14-14).


Cap is not mentioned (and the WL rules don't specifically address timeouts in cap). When the horn blows, no team gains or loses any timeouts. The number of timeouts that a team has remaining at any given moment depends on:
1. How many you started the half with. WL rules say 1 per half and a floater, right?
2. How many you used this half.
3. What the score is, but ONLY if the game is in overtime.

The only tricky area is in the definition/interpretation of "game total". From the examples in the rules, "game total" seems to be the number that the game is "to" (e.g "game to 13"). A team must be winning by at least two points when the game total is reached to be declared the winner.

My personal interpretation is that the "game total" changes to (current, tied score, + 1) when hard cap goes off. This effectively makes it overtime = "ultimate point". Under this interpretation, if cap goes off when it's 4-3 and the trailing team ties it up (4-4), the game enters overtime and each team has exactly one timeout.

A more conservative interpretation would say that overtime ONLY starts when the game goes into (ultimate's version of) deuce. For WL, that would be when the game is tied at 12's.
----------------
Under either interpretation, once black tied the game 12-12 against us yesterday, overtime began. Black had used all of their timeouts in regulation, so they effectively "gained" a timeout. Not that they used it. Almost everyone on the sidelines espoused the misconception that "cap" and "timeout" are ever discussed together in the USAU 11th edition (on in the 2-line WL rules). So we had a chat, whence this TL;DR

So.... Should we expect an amendment to the WL rules to match the misconception, or should we play by the 11th ed.?







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ROCOBaller



Joined: 22 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

didn't we already have a multi page discussion on this last year?
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

April: probably. I wasn't sure how in-depth the discussion got (and it should go without saying that I was too lazy to look for it...)
Lots of confusion amongst the high school contingency on the sidelines --> whynot.jpg


Will: I was asking more if future FDA rules would explicitly supercede the Overtime rules (not really asking for 2/2 timeouts).
Three lines, really? You know I haven't read them!
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ROCOBaller



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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the problem lies in the fact that each TD does something differently. It's okay as long as the captains know what the current league rules are concerning time outs and time outs in the cap and/or overtime, but it might be time we jot down an official league rules, or say we play with 11th edition and follow those completely. however, there will be nothing stopping any future TD from changing those if he/she doesn't like an aspect of them unless the EC implements a rule or process concerning league rule changes.
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Supafunky



Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The league rules are clear. Anything not covered specifically within the league rules should be covered by the 11th edition.
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RandomHero



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we still doing double pts for female scores?
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Supafunky



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PostPosted: Tue, 01.22.13 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Timeouts after/during cap Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
My personal interpretation is that the "game total" changes to (current, tied score, + 1) when hard cap goes off. This effectively makes it overtime = "ultimate point". Under this interpretation, if cap goes off when it's 4-3 and the trailing team ties it up (4-4), the game enters overtime and each team has exactly one timeout.


This is wrong. The game total is established at the beginning of the game and does not change. All other game ending conditions are covered as point cap, soft time cap, or hard time cap.

Chuck wrote:
A more conservative interpretation would say that overtime ONLY starts when the game goes into (ultimate's version of) deuce. For WL, that would be when the game is tied at 12's.


This is the correct interpretation.
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