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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 519
Location: Bentonville

PostPosted: Thu, 07.03.14 1:28 pm    Post subject: "It's just summer league"... Reply with quote

... or "How I learned to stop caring about the rules"

There is this tendency for us to do things in the context of summer league - be lazy, not make calls, impose wacky rules that don't reward merit or skill, totally ignore leash laws (pet peeve, AMIRITE) - that we wouldn't see at a higher level of play/organization. Then we just chalk it up to being "(just) summer league" or "(just) pickup".

It's a bunch of complacency and mediocrity. Trust me - I know about these concepts!

What I observed in my wanderings last Tuesday:

1) New (read "novice") players totally mauled each other on a bid. I tried to stop play and explain that an infraction had potentially occurred, but was overruled by Mr. Monocle. Granted, we eventually brought it back to the spot of the foul, but it took a lot of discussion to get someone to acknowledge the call. Is this summer/teaching league or not?

2) Girl gets whacked in the face/ear, and ultimately her team loses possession. Play kinda slows down, but a now-offender streaks deep for the score. No "injury" or violation was called. Is there room for common courtesy in (just) summer league?

3) Derpfoot is all over a new(ish) player on the mark. I heckle and berate as usual. Then in the subsequent conversation, it was basically explained to me that "I can break the rules up until someone calls a foul/violation. That's how new players learn". Now I didn't really hammer the issue home there on the sidelines (partly because Paul Baker threatened to actually punch me - and not in the usual, pillow-talk voice that he usually uses), but it started to bother me.
3.a. This mentality is patently contrary to the letter and to the spirit of the game. To wit: "...players are similarly expected to make every effort to avoid breaking [the rules]." Granted, it's in the etiquette section, but still...
3.b we are setting a terrible example for the future generations. See also [my previous rants about the kids]. The kids have really made some progress in the area of sportsmanship/spirit in the past few years.
Play by the rules. Self-officiation starts with officiating yourself.

So what's the deal - are we just going to cater to the lowest common denominator, or can we take steps to grow the community and the sport?

I do recognize that this is coming from one of the most hated players in the area, and that the "boards" are mostly just troll bait these days. Maybe I should email the captains instead...


Last edited by Chuck on Tue, 07.08.14 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jacob



Joined: 13 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu, 07.03.14 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play Kan Jam.
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Kearney



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PostPosted: Fri, 07.04.14 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: "It's just summer league"... Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:

1) Mr. Monocle Is this summer/teaching league or not?


I attempted to purchase a monocle last week. Shady situation.
Are you trying to teach players that any veteran can stop play and make calls for them if they're unwilling to? There was plenty of stoppage time to make any noise. Whether it be ask a question, "can I call a foul?" or statement, "Foul."

Chuck wrote:

2) Girl gets whacked in the face/ear, and ultimately her team loses possession. Play kinda slows down, but a now-offender streaks deep for the score. No "injury" or violation was called. Is there room for common courtesy in (just) summer league?


Did this girl not hold an esteemed position on the College Women's team? Play slowed, courtesy was given, the stretcher (luckily) stayed sidelined.

Chuck wrote:

3) New(ish) player is all over Derpfoot on the mark. Derpfoot still gets his throw off, New(ish) player gets told about proper placement of arms while marking, and the world lives to see another day.

Just removed the sensationalism of that one, my receptors were redlining.

Chuck wrote:

Play by the rules. Self-officiation starts with officiating yourself.


Contestants 1, 2, and 3 should read, re-read, and read backwards what you just said. And then maybe read 1/3 of the rulebook like the rest of us upstanding ultimate players!
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri, 07.04.14 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) I contest that neither of those novice players was *unwilling* to make a call; they didn't know the rules.
I'm not trying to teach anarchy, just going by the Sacred Text (XIX.E)!
Also, what surplus of time are you referring to? You picked up the disc within 3 seconds of the foul. Props for teaching people about XIX.B though =)

2) that's the one. When half of the players are clearly stopped and concerned with the safety of another player, I assert that play shouldn't continue.

3) that didn't - and wouldn't - happen. By and large, FDA players either don't know how/where to establish a legal defensive position, or they knowingly violate this rule. Who would tell the new player the rule? Surely not you!

I'm sure there's more to say. Come find me on Tuesday! Gotta get back to being MURICAN
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Last edited by Chuck on Fri, 07.04.14 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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xaja



Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri, 07.04.14 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacob wrote:
Play Kan Jam.


Brother, are you and I going to play in the World Championships next year?

It's in NY and usually around the beginning of August.
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Supafunky



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PostPosted: Fri, 07.04.14 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: "It's just summer league"... Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
... or "How I learned to stop caring about the rules"

There is this tendency for us to do things in the context of summer league - be lazy, not make calls, impose wacky rules that don't reward merit or skill, totally ignore leash laws (pet peeve, AMIRITE) - that we wouldn't see at a higher level of play/organization. Then we just chalk it up to being "(just) summer league" or "(just) pickup".


Lazy - never
Not make calls - only travels on the novices.
Wacky rules - yes
ignore leash laws - never (there's a reason I leave my dog at home - see my previous rants)

I really have no idea what you mean about not rewarding merit or skill. What rules are in place that meet this criteria?


Chuck wrote:

So what's the deal - are we just going to cater to the lowest common denominator, or can we take steps to grow the community and the sport?


Let's grow the community and the sport. Keep fighting the good fight.

Chuck wrote:

I do recognize that this is coming from one of the most hated players in the area, and that the "boards" are mostly just troll bait these days. Maybe I should email the captains instead...


Not most hated. You're only 2nd on the list of people we love to hate (Casey is first,duh), but that's not real hate anyway.
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SharpWill28



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sat, 07.05.14 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how you have the authority to deem your own thread so important that it needs a sticky. Remove the sticky and put it with the rest of the threads and let the masses (Evan and Eric) decide if it's worth of being saved. And then we can find it seven pages deep in a year.

Instead of writing TL;DR stuff, just run for a position on the EC. We literally had 4 volunteer candidates (sorry, Whitney) for 5 positions last election. Be the league director, have unlimited times outs for all the explaining that needs to be done, order copies of the rule books for every FDA member (something our current EC should probably do anyhow).

You're obviously passionate about the rules, if you want that to be a focus, get into a position to make it a focus. For king kharl and myself, teaching the rules isn't necessarily as important as just keeping people playing and learn basic strategies.
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat, 07.05.14 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you want me to have less authority *and* more authority? Normally I look forward to your rebuttal, but this just smacks of the same old "you think you could do better?!" rhetoric.

Besides a veiled criticism of the gender rules for this league, I'm not really talking about policy. (Fwiw, I think we're in agreement about how these rules marginalize new, non-female players.)

I appreciate your efforts to improve the game through strategy, skill, and practice. Obviously I lack those things, but should that undermine my hopes of seeing an increase in sportsmanship, rules understanding, and overall goodwill?

The sticky is temporary. My apologies to the Kan Jam association for sidelining their threads.
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SharpWill28



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PostPosted: Sat, 07.05.14 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want you to have more authority if you think you have positive ways to improve our community, which I think you do.

Your last notion was correct, don't use these boards. Talk to captains with specific ideas of how to fix the issues you see. Talk to the EC with specific suggestions.

"Let's be better" isn't going to get us to be better. Specific action could.
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Kearney



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PostPosted: Sun, 07.06.14 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
Come find me on Tuesday! Gotta get back to being MURICAN


So last week. Waffles are so hot right now.
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xaja



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PostPosted: Sun, 07.06.14 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learning the rules is a good thing.

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/whats-the-call-incidental-contact/

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/whats-the-call-principle-of-verticality/

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/whats-the-call-establishing-a-pivot/

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/whats-the-call-picks/

http://www.usaultimate.org/news/whats-the-call-stalling-upon-possession/
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Chuck



Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon, 07.07.14 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will,
I sent you an email.
Wasn't really sure what to say in an email to all the captains, as most of my suggestions wouldn't really fit into the context of our weekly games. On second thought... If people wanted to show up at 5:30, maybe that would be a good chance to get a few drills in.

SharpWill28 wrote:
For king kharl and myself, teaching the rules isn't necessarily as important as just keeping people playing and learn basic strategies.


I might suggest that a few of the key rules violations could turn people off from playing ultimate/League. If we could, as a community, all move towards "...avoid[ing] contact in every way possible" and compliance with disc-space rules, that would be good. I speculate that new players getting hug-marked by 6'3" men isn't doing us any good.

Another thing that is keeping some from playing (e.g. Garrett B, for as long as I've known him) is ignorance of some fundamentals. Mostly positioning. Now, I wish that Garrett's captain had never chewed him out for not holding the **** force all those years ago, but maybe more teaching would have prevented some hurt feelings and his indefinite hiatus from FDA.

Lastly, there might be some room to inform new players about how to prevent injuries. I don't know... Maybe I should have put all this in my email!
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Elvin



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PostPosted: Tue, 07.08.14 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: "It's just summer league"... Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
the "boards" are mostly just troll bait these days


As opposed to her golden years when she was purely troll bail.
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Elvin



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PostPosted: Tue, 07.08.14 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpWill28 wrote:
I like how you have the authority to deem your own thread so important that it needs a sticky. Remove the sticky and put it with the rest of the threads and let Evan and Eric decide if it's worthy of being saved. And then we can find it seven pages deep in a year.


Agreed.
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Elvin



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PostPosted: Tue, 07.08.14 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck wrote:
I appreciate your efforts to improve the game through strategy, skill, and practice. Obviously I lack those things, but should that undermine my hopes of seeing an increase in sportsmanship, rules understanding, and overall goodwill?


I feel like you snuck 'rules understanding' between 'sportsmanship' and 'overall goodwill' to make it seem like the same thing. New players have a hard enough time understanding what a mark is or how to not clog until it's their turn to cut, quoting some rule from the depths of the 11th edition (I guess they're still on 11?) isn't helping them. They will get a deeper understanding of the rules by playing college or club if they decide to but in the meantime there should be a place where fun, fairly competitive, organized ultimate can be played. If you want to see the sport/community grow then making sure new players are getting a chance to compete (with help from some wacky rules, letting some travels/whatever slide, etc) and feel accepted is the way to go. Not quoting rule books.[/i]
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